Transcripts: Diverse Web Chat on the State of Black Greek Letter OrganizationsNovember 15, 2007 |
Editor’s Note: Here is the modified transcript from Diverse’s web chat on the state of Black Greek-letter Organizations, held Nov. 14. We’ve organized the transcript around certain themes to make it more user-friendly. But, it has not been edited for grammar and style. The comments of panelists are in bold.
Moderator: On behalf of all of us here at Diverse: Issues In Higher Education, we would like to thank our esteemed panelists for joining us today for a provocative discussion on the current state of Black Greek-letter organizations.
Joining us today we have:
Dr. Ricky L. Jones, associate professor and chair of the department of Pan-African Studies at the University of Louisville, is the author of Black Haze: Violence, Sacrifice, and Manhood in Black Greek-Letter Fraternities. He is a life member of Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity, Inc.
Dr. Gregory S. Parks is editor of the new book Our Fight Has Just Begun: The Relevance of Black Fraternities and Sororities in the 21st Century. A life member of Alpha Phi Alpha, Inc., Parks received his doctorate in psychology from the University of Kentucky and is a JD candidate at Cornell University.
Dr. Deborah Whaley is an assistant professor in the department of American Studies at the University of Iowa. Her research and teaching fields include American cultural history (19th century to the present) and comparative American and ethnic studies. She has published widely on the subject of Black Greek Letter Organizations, Black cinema and popular culture, and her first book project concerns the cultural and public sphere work of a historically Black sorority.
Titilayo Akinmusuru, a proud 2007 graduate of Howard University and member of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc., brings a student perspective to the discussion. The Golden Key International Honor Society member and former copyeditor for The Hilltop Newspaper, is pursuing a doctorate in physical therapy from Wayne State University.
Loann King, chairwoman of the Alpha Kappa Alpha’s International Program Committee, has served in almost every aspect of membership participation, including serving a consultant to the AKA national headquarters. The longtime educator and administrator retired in 2003 as vice president of student services and enrollment management at
Kennedy-King College/City Colleges of Chicago.
Dr. Kathryn Malvern, a retired Rutgers University professor, is chairwoman of the Zeta Phi Beta Sorority National Educational Foundation, Inc. A life member of Zeta Phi Beta Sorority, Inc., she plans and implements community outreach service.
Moderator We will begin momentarily.
Dr Parks: Well, let me throw this out there: What is the most pressing issue facing BGLOs?
Suzette : Hazing
Della: Undergraduate Hazing
Buffalo: Why do the Greek organization continue to allow physical abuse and hazing?
BCResearcher: I believe that hazing is a huge problem.
K: Pitts: I do think that we need to establish the goal(s) of this discussion
RPL: I think at this point, a pressing issue is whether or not the BGLOs are going to survive.
Dr Parks: The title of the forum is The State of Black Greek Letter Organizations–pretty broad goal.
Melissa: I think hazing is still considered a major problem because it’s tied so closely to the history of our organizations.
BCResearcher: those activities have caused internal circles within organizations creating inconsistency across the board.
Buffalo: what goal…why do they continue to allow physical abuse and hazing?
Dr Whaley: It seems like hazing is a topic of interest. Perhaps we can discuss that and the pledge process. Yet, I hope we can discuss sustain ability as well
Melissa: so many members tie their commitment and “loyalty” that comes with membership
Dr Jones: The greatest problem is death – death of the orgs and the real and potential deaths of people trying to join them. It is an unacceptable reality.
Lking: I think BGLOs may need to redefine themselves especially at PWI
Syreeta: I think another point is why do BGLOs still exist? Why is necessary to have us around? And, yes will we survive another 100 years?
Trapper: my thoughts/concern are the unity of the divine 9
Haze History: The greatest problem is the gap between old members and young members
RPL: I am seeing fewer and fewer members of all of the orgs. these days and it’s rather disturbing to me.
Lking: It is a tragic reality that young people have such a need to belong and it is exploited by people.
Dr Whaley: The metaphor of death is a good one Dr. Jones. It looks like we have three topics: sustaining, hazing, unity. Maybe we should take each one on for 10 minutes
Dr Parks: I think the issue which trumps all others is BGLOs’ (as organizations and members within them) inability to look critically at themselves.
Dr Whaley: Aside: Looking forward to the Barack Obama book!
APA-6-ML-Sp03: Dr. Parks, why do you believe the BGLOs aren’t assessing themselves? Don’t most, if not all BGLOs have some sort of strategic plan?
Moderator: So, let’s officially begin our discussion with first and most obvious question. Are Black Greek-letter organizations really in peril or is that an inflammatory statement?
Suzette : yes the are in peril
Lking: I think that they are in peril–well some of them it varies campus to campus
Rpl: I think they are in peril. AS I stated before, I am seeing fewer and fewer participants.
Dr Jones: I believe at this moment that the groups either don’t want to or can’t stop hazing. If this persists, I think they should be disbanded. I for one, am not willing to see another kid seriously injured or killed. That’s the jist of my current argument. Stop hazing or disband. So I think if they aren’t in peril, they should be.
Headquarters: Let’s see.. imprisonment for felony hazing… embezzlement by national executive board members… and aggravated kidnapping with hot cookies.
Della: I Believe undergraduates and think HAZING is a tradition or an expectation so undergraduates continue to allow themselves to be mentally and physically abused not understanding the ramifications to the organizations as a whole.
Headquarters: Uh.. yeah. Peril is an understatement.
Dr Parks: I think they are. There are a number of challenges that face us, both internal to the organizations and external. We do not seem to be at a place where we are ready to ask difficult questions and look for answers that might not cast us in the most flattering light.
Buffalo: it’s not inflammatory….why are they in peril are the numbers down significantly?
Haze History: We are peril like every other black org in the country such as the NAACP, SCLC, etc etc
Dr Jones: SCLC and the NAACP aren’t beating people to death, though
Titilayo Akinmusuru: I think that if we plan to see BGLOs exist on the level to which they can thrive and be taken seriously as civic organizations, then yes… We are in peril…
Loann King: BLGO’s are in peril if hazing continues. The food news is that all of the BLGO’s are working to eliminate this aspect of their culture.
Dawson: I believe the “peril” that the Greeks face is the same “peril” that faces this generation of college students. Millennials and Greeks are not a good mixture. Students just dont seem to possess the ability to becomes citizens of a big picture/greater cause now-days.
BCResearcher: IMHO BGLOs will crumble and not survive another 100 years, especially if undergraduate chapters remain intact. The gap between older and younger members is a very pressing issue that seems to be silenced. I think that once that is addressed and everyone is on the same level, then and only then can
Rpl: Maybe the alternative is to disband undergrad chapters and just keep it at the grad level.
Moderator: Is the solution to violent hazing, as one guest has stated, disbanding BGLOs on the undergraduate level?
Lking: their identities seem to be connected to how much they can tolerate–even though it does not them(members) more committed or connected to the goals of the organizations
Vonetta1908: to rpl: definitely not a solution
BCResearcher: No BGLO endorses hazing, so I don’t believe it is fair to say that they do not want to stop hazing. I believe that the root of the problem is that an alternative intake process that is meaningful and safe has not been identified.
JCH: collegiate chapters are the face of our orgs
Haze History: If u disband undergrad the problem will still continue
JCH: disbanding them isn’t the answer
Titilayo Akinmusuru: Please remember that the orgs were founded TO BE on undergraduate campuses… Grad chapters are a development of that vision
L: Stover: I think the statement is too general. I recently saw 75 Kappas at a college reunion… from 1950 to 2006…. the school only has 1500 .. it is an HBCU.
Loann King: We need to redirect the focus of undergraduates that bring them back to the tenants of the founders who established the BGLOs. In addition, programs directed at getting undergraduates involved in positive campus activities need to emphasized.
Rpl: to vonetta1908: why not a solution? please enlighten me…
Dr Jones: Again, they don’t WANT to stop hazing or CAN”T. The outcome is the same.
Lking: I disagree as a member of a BGLO there are non hazing intake processes
Cornell: Craig: Disbanding will not stop what is going on. I have know of places where there is no active chapter that continue to promote and participate in a “process”
Dr Jones: National disbanding WILL solve the problem – Greeks just don’t like that solution.
Haze History: : NO, Dr. Jones it will not solve the problem in fact it would spread the problem
SP92ACE: disbanding chapters will not solve the problem
Loann King: We need to address these issues from an holistic approach by educating not only the members but those who want to be members.
TJl7316: the thing we all must realize that to many undergrads have gotten caught up in hazing and don’t realize the difference in pledging
DAWSON: I believe one solution to hazing would be to return to an extend process that insures that the individuals are learning the important information
SP92ACE: No, disbanding will not solve the problem. There are alumni chapters and members who haze.
Moderator: What is to be done to control hazing. Also, has the recent spate of violent hazing incidents compromised the integrity of BGLOs?
Dr Parks: The issue of hazing is a central one, but I think much of the debate is at least in part misguided. The broader questions has to deal with what type of organizations we are or should be and how we bring in members should fit within that vision in light of morality, laws, university guidelines, etc.
Buffalo: self assess why BGLO’s continue to allow hazing: when I was a student my roommate was beaten so badly he required medical attention. I was hit so hard that in legal terms it was nothing but an assault: my friend’d daughter came home this semester with a black eyes and black and blur marks all over her body
Ronnie622: The focus of BGLOs has been one of service. The hazing is out of control and is detrimental to the purpose and goals of the BGLO
Haze History: The question is what is hazing?
Dr Parks: I think that without a substantial process by which we bring members in, the organizations will also be in peril in the 21st century.
JCH: Most of our orgs have non-hazing intake processes. The question is, why is there still a desire for something other than what’s prescribed by our national orgs.
BCResearcher: I think that there is that lingering desire because the non-hazing intake process is not thorough enough
Dr Jones: Iking, your argument is a non-starter. Clearly, hazing is a widespread problem in these groups.
Vonetta1908: to rpl: the issue is that people want to feel like they have earned their letters. that desire will not cease because they have graduated
Titilayo Akinmusuru: I don’t agree with blanket statements… please preface the statements w/ a “in most universitites”…
Lking: I agree but that is not a national mandate
Moderator(Q): Are alumni members to blame for the hazing some undergraduate Greeks inflict on potential members? Did not these individuals learn this behavior from the members that preceded them?
Dr Parks(A): That’s correct.
Hilson: There is a large disconnect between the undergraduate and graduate levels I believe. Some sort of transition needs to be developed to encourage younger members to become active members in graduate chapters. It seems that members are more interested in wearing T-shirts, than contributing service
Cornell: Craig: There is a disconnect between the Undergraduate chapters and the national organizations. Almost two separate entities.
Trapper: as a Greek Life Cord. for a university, there is a lack of involvement with any national, regional or chapter advisors to aid in the prevention of hazing.
Syreeta: I agree with trapper…many grad level members are not involved with the development of undergrads leaving them on their own
Dr Jones: Many grads haze, too – or agree with it. It’s much deeper than age.
Trapper: also, this topic was discussed at the National Convention in Detroit….which also had a small amount of participation of undergrads
BCResearcher: There is a large lack of mentorship in the case of undergraduates in my opinion that is causing many issues, at least in my experience
MzQStorm: @ moderator, no, I do not believe that alumni members are to blame… most of the problems with processes today is due to the loss of focus… are you trying to mold a new member or prove that your chapter is the hardest?
Gharris: I don’t think it’s just about the hazing…look at the low interest rates in other Greek organizations, the generation in school at present is not community-oriented as much as prior generations. They don’t see the need to belong to local social organizations as their social circle is now worldwide
BCResearcher: I agree with you Syreeta; this is what has happened in my personal story
SP92ACE: Sorry for joining late
Suzette: being involved MORE with the ungrads on campus might help
Dr Parks: How do we solve the hazing problem short of disbanding undergrad chapters?
trapper educate them?
Dr Whaley: Dr. Jones’ point is a good one. Should we press back and think through Dr. Parks’ and Dr. Brown’s suggestions in their book Legacy and the Vision about the pledge process and hazing? And, Dr. Jones I know you forwarded ideas on this too in Black Haze? Then we can chat about that and go to topic two?
BCResearcher: In fact, we (undergraduates) were told not to communicate with graduate members, only to our designated advisor
Dr Jones: These stories are not unusual. It is a deep-seated culture that is not slowing down and is often defended by many black Greeks.
Lking: BGLO do not seem to serve the same purpose or populations, oddly enough the needs of students have not changed. maybe we should ask how BGLOs enhance the campus
Trapper: involve them in university programs that relate to hazing
Titilayo Akinmusuru: @ buffalo… there are 2 sides to that argument… a) why would someone hurt that child so badly? b) why would that person allow themselves to be disrespected in such a manner. I think that education needs to be done on both sides.
MzQStorm: I agree with Dr. Parks… I think that we as grads need to really review what we’ve been doing and come up with something better
SP92ACE: The issue is broader than Greekdom and I have said on numerous occasions
Haze History: We put in place a program that they can agree to and they can “earn” their letters
diamondsquare86: Hazing is not just limited to BLGO’s, it extends to athletics and other non-BLGO orgs. It is a constant in grad chapters and has a place in the rituals to promote bonding. The level of hazing is the limit that we must consider- what is acceptable and what is not – and that is the key to controlling
Trapper: contact the Greek life advisors and ensure that the BGLOs are participating in the proper new member education that the universities offer.
Lking: its hard for most “hazed” Greeks to separate their identity from their intake experience
HGSE2000: There seems to be a tendency to criticize all Greeks for the actions of a few. Hazing is banned by ALL BGLOs. Those individuals that still haze are in violation of organization policy and if caught, they will be criminally charged.
K: Pitts: Dr. Jones are Greek and if so are you active?
DrBradley: What does everyone think about open membership?
Moderator: Great question! Wouldn’t open membership reduce the occurrence of violent hazing incidents and make BGLOs more inclusive? At this moment in time, can the Black community afford to have nine organizations that promote exclusivity?
Lking: the bottom line to me is this As black folk who can we afford to keep out …we need each other
Titilayo Akinmusuru: D9 orgs are not the only orgs that have intakes or processes… take any organization and put it on an HBCU campus, and you might see “hazing”
Dr Jones: Iking, you’re right, but few groups haze as extensively or as consistently as black Greeks
Hilson: I think hazing occurs just as frequently in other organizations, but aren’t publicized as widely
BeauTIFFulAKA: Dr. Jones, I dont agree with that.
Titilayo Akinmusuru: I cannot agree with open membership… sorry… you might as well shut down the chapters before open membership occurs… but in MY sense of open membership, membership is available to anyone who is of good character, and exhibits the qualities and upholds the ideals of the organizations… but then again… I abide by that mentality.
SP92ACE: So, should we close the doors of our organizations?
Dr Jones: Open memebrship is better than injury and death. Defend hazing, but own the consequences of your defense.
DeltaDiva02: I agree dawson
Dawson: if they dont learn what they are supposed to, then they should was themselves out.
DrBradley: Open membership in the sense that we could accept members like the rotary or lions do?
Dr Whaley: I am finding that the posts are come so quickly I cannot read or respond
SP92ACE: Naw…no turnstyle doors for me.
DeltaDiva02: no open memberships what’s the purpose?
Loann King: AKA has stated in that individuals seeking membership who accept hazing and not report it will not be initiated into the sorority.
Lking: so disbanding will not true–they all haze but some get caught more than others– athletes also haze–none of it is right
TJl7316: there was a recent leadership conference that show that there were more reported cases of “hazing” when they took the pledge process away
Dr Whaley: What would open membership entail Dr Jones? .
DrBradley: if we take away the dysfunctional mystique with open membership, thats one thought
DeltaDiva02: i don’t defend hazing but I also don’t defend taking everyone
Dr Parks: Open membership doesn’t help our organizations be what they are intended to be.
ONU: OMD: Dr. Jones, did you enter your organization through open membership?
DAWSON: second would be to choose proven leadership on campus, not friends. people who have been working since they started on campus, have the grades (3.0), not folks who join the NAACP and volunteer two months before interest meeting.
JCH: yes, im curious about open membership
BeauTIFFulAKA: I dont think that anyone defends hazing but getting rid of organizations that do good in many communities is not the answer.
Lking: what does it take to make a good member of an organization…that is the real question. what do you want your members to value, learn and share to future members and the community at large
DrBradley: Let me explain what I mean by open membership
DeltaDiva02: yes buffalo
TJl7316: i agree with Dawson
Headquarters: Open membership already exists. We fool ourselves into thinking it doesn’t. The caliber of aspirant has gone down, and guess what… it’s due largely in part because the caliber of our membership has gone down.
DeltaDiva02: I believe we have to have a higher standard we need to educate undergrads on quality and not quantity
Haze History: a lot of chapters because of MIP alreday have “Open Membership”
DrBradley: just like anyone can join rotary, lions…they pay and they become active
Titilayo Akinmusuru: “open membership” in the mentality that everyone who wants to be in a BGLO is initiated loses the potency of the work that is done by a few…
BeauTIFFulAKA: I also think that you have a different perspective on the situation when you are a part of a Greek organization.
Lking: If you are member of a BGLO ask your self who hazed the founders hazing is petty politics at its best–its almost internal racism!
MzQStorm: open membership will create a situation that cannot be monitored & we will have more issues than hazing on our hands
Prettyprecocious: i agree with headquarters–we take everyone who submits just because we’re either scared of supposed lawsuits or because we don’t care about our true vision and are more worried about our friends getting in.
Headquarters: Dawson, I have seen applicants with all of those qualities get rejected by BGLOs.. in favor of candidates that leave much to be desired.
Cornell: Craig Sending anything underground or in prohibition raises its value. The process should be brought above ground and regulated.
DrBradley: there would be no initiation
Dr Whaley: So open membership equals the current membership intake process. I wonder if some are confused and have different ideas about this.
Dr Parks: Let’s say we are organizations dedicated to personal excellence, community uplift, and the fostering and sustaining of foctive kinship ties. Would it not make sense to have a process that 1) adequately screens folks to make sure they have the propensity for these qualities and/or 2) inculcates them with those values?
DrBradley: no open membership is not the current process
Dr Jones: The truth is, as I said, many Greeks support the pledge process, and therefore hazing. There’s no way around that. That’s why its still around and not in danger of going anywhere.
ONU: OMD A regulated process with structure is a neccesity!
BeauTIFFulAKA: What does open membership mean?
Theladyaka: I think the biggest problem, and one we havent seen discussed, is that we are not taking the time to instill the values and history of BGLOs in a manner that the hazing will not persist.
DrBradley: open membership would mean that I could call a HQ right now, pay and become a member
Dr Jones: No.
Haze History: the lady aka is correct
prodigy2mz02: I think we should remember that we are talking about Fraternities and Sororities and not just community organizations
Dawson: Unfortunately, many orgs have open membership. We need to reduce membership to a few quality candidates. If we just intake 5 campus academic, leadership, and service all starts each semester or each year, that will be ok. I believe the overall caliber of the general student on each campus will.
Dr Whaley: Above ground and regulated. Membership intake has not solved the proble
MzQStorm: I think that anything that is done has to be started from the national level & enforced from national to regional to local… we will not truly resolve the hazing/intake issues until the national presidents come together and realize that banning hazing & throwing together the membership intake process.
Dr Bradley: if there is no “member process” there is no hazing
BCResearcher: I agree that the current membership intake processes are equivalent to open membership
Lking: no you still need to learn the history and background of the org. But they pride themselves on being elite.
Theladyaka: I think open membership is the problem. Continuing with open membership will allow those who “just join” the organization to join will do just that.
Dr Whaley: Can’t we have a pledge process without hazing?
Marshallis: We can have a pledge process w/out hazing
Loann King: Through the years individuals have joined these organizations without being hazed and are active, productive members of the organization. They need to be highlighted and their stories publicizied and promoted within and without.
Haze History: I disagree Dr. Jones we can have a pledge process without hazing
BeauTIFFulAKA: So, I take it that some people believe that the idea of “open membership” will decrease hazing.
Dr Whaley: Loann King just made a really good point. I hope we do not lose that point
prodigy2mz02: how do you maintain the brotherhood within the organization without a process to teach its members what that means?
DeltaDiva02: Hazing is such a loaded word it encompasses everything now
Cornell: Craig: Nothing is above ground and regulated now.
Titilayo Akinmusuru: Exactly soror @ Delta Diva
Titilayo Akinmusuru: Hazing means ANYTHING.
Headquarters: For those that are so vehement about sustaining a pledging process. Are you as vehement about attracting quality members to your chapters?
DAWSON: i have to disagree with Dr. Whaley, I believe you can have an above ground pledge process with out hazing if the grad chapters will take the time to assist
Lking: ya’ll know what hazing is…
Dr Jones: Again, hazing and pledging are inextricably tied in these groups. Any argument to the contrary is disingenuous – and Greeks know it.
DeltaDiva02: I am, headquarters
Prettyprecocious: exactly @deltadiva02
Diamondsquare86: Now comes the genreation gap: having been made in the 80’s, the young brothers are considered as less-than-genuine and the caliber of frat is questioned
Prettyprecocious: hazing = everything = nothing
DrBradley: if I could become a member with my friends, without going through the hazing, why wouldnt I
DeltaDiva02: I told my own cousin not to submit because she was not ready
BCResearcher: I agree with you “theladyaka”
Buffalo: exactly what is a “quality member?
Headquarters: how many of you know people that can run down pledge stories.. but can’t even give you basic information on the last time.. they organized a program for their chapter…
DrBradley: and see buffalo that is the problem
Headquarters: …did community service for their chapter..
Syreeta to: be honest I think the problems facing BGLOs is more a reflexion of the Black community and our ability to unite and be involved in the problems that face us when it comes to the quality of new members
Dr Parks: Do we think BGLO members–grad and undergrad–are prepared to honestly dialogue about MIP/hazing?
Titilayo Akinmusuru: my chapter produces quality members who become more quality women, who become an asset to the sorority and the community at large. If they were not quality individuals, they would not be attracted to Delta, nor would they be chosen.
DeltaDiva02: someone who is going to uphold the ideals and values of the org
BeauTIFFulAKA: yes@ Dr. Parks
DrBradley: we don’t have a standard for anything that we all universally uphold…we don’t have a definition for quality, character, hazing….
Headquarters: Titilayo.. your chapter may.. but every chapter doesn’t…
Dr Jones: No, Greeks are not prepared to honestly dialogue on this. That’s why they will continue to hurt and kill people – and defend it.
Theladyaka: I beleive a “quality member” is someone who agrees with the values and history of the organization. Fore me, working alongside underrgrads. I know they don’t get it.
Ernise: I agree Dr. Parks
Prettyprecocious: yes @ Dr Parks, but every time a convo is started, people don’t listen to each other
DAWSON: Dr. Bradley, their still be post hazing… we just suspended a campus org for that.
JCH: I agree prettyyprecocious
DeltaDiva02: Dr. Parks it is often renegade members that do this
BCResearcher: buffalo, a quality member is someone who embodies the standards of excellence set forth by Founders
Ernise: True DeltaDiva
Dr Parks: But we, in many ways, cast ourselves as different from other organizations and the community at large. Should’t we be held to a higher standard? Could our issues have more profound an impact on our orgs given our peculiar identity?
DeltaDiva02: If you’re not paying your dues to begin with you have nothing to lose
Buffalo: great answere BC Reasercher
Dr Jones: According to hazers, a quality member is someone who could take the punishment of hazing/pledging
Headquarters Now.. think about that for a second.. and think about the number of people with subpar GPAs that.. are now representing BGLOs..
TJl7316: i think another problem is people are pledging their chapters then their over all organizations
DrBradley: if there are new members that outnumber the current members, who would post haze dawson
Theladyaka: I agree BCresercher
Haze History: Not all Greeks Kill people Dr. Jones and not all underground process haze people. If we did BGLO would kill someone every month
DeltaDiva02: If you’re not financial don’t talk to me
Prettyprecocious: i just sat in a grad advisor meeting where all we talked about was hazing–we didn’t even start to actually consider that undergrads have other issues to deal with besides hazing.
TJl7316: they are loosing the true concept on we not I
Dr Parks: Renegade members who do what?
Titilayo Akinmusuru: @HQ. I agree… thats why I believe that renegade chapters need to be policed to some extent, but trying to lockdown the institution as a whole might have more crippling effects on our society than foreseen.
Loann King: I believe that when we start asking questions that relate to defining hazing. It is a detractor from the real issue. Do you belong or join an organization to give service? Or is it for some other reason?
DeltaDiva02: cause the majority of the problems
BeauTIFFulAKA: Amen @ Haze History.
Prettyprecocious: when is anyone even going to talk about how people throw themselves on the railroad tracks and dang near make people haze them sometimes cuz they just won’t leave them alone
Dr Whaley: I wonder if we might slow down a bit and provide time to forward a list of suggestions and move through the other two topics.
Dr Parks: I disagree with FDr. Jones end-goal, but he raises good points that should be pondered.
Dr Jones: Not all Germans killed people either, not all white were slaveholders, but these facts don’t eradicate the reality of the Holocaust or slavery. Empty argument
DAWSON: Dr.Bradley, the new members have to have some degree of self esteem, confidence, and leadership… that would be the only way to stop the influence of old members with misdirected intentions.
DrBradley: can someone recommend a revolutionary membership process?
Rho Thea: Que: A revolutionary process would be to have a qualified graduate chapter member observe each and every session to determine if the open hand slaps or wood have gone to far.
Haze History: But if I tell someone to repeat history to me I am hazing them that’s BULL SHIT, Dr. Jones.
Rho Thea: Que: Why change the process at all?
Rho Thea: Que: Joining the Navy, Air force, and Marine Corps takes a process that some have died undertaking. Over the years these death have grown. The United States of America has not stopped the deaths. The frequency of deaths has dropped through education though.
Haze History: WE NEED TO STOP ALL VIOLENT HAZING BUT WE DO NEED A NEW MEMBERSHIP INTAKE PROCESS
DrBradley: well dawson, if there was a faction of the AARP that hazed, they would become the anomaly, because so many other people can join when they want to
Dr Jones: You becoming irrational, Haze History
Haze History: No, I am correct
MzQStorm: @ DrBradley, I think that a group could be formed that could revitalize the membership intake
C.: Brown: I just completed a graduate intake process and had a generally positive experience, complete with bonding (under pressure), learning history, and instilling pride. It CAN be done!
Dr Whaley: Thank you for your point C. Brown
Haze History: too many of our kids are losing their lives trying to teach other kids without the help of the “elders”
Marshallis: cbrown that is a good point and to hell w/ what others think or say
Lking: I agree haze history
Rho Thea: Que: one must be tested before admittance to an organization
DrBradley: but where is the revolutionary process…we can’t agree on any standards…but we know this